True Wealth Beyond Material Success - Mike Rinehart

In this enlightening conversation, we explore spiritual development with Bishop Mike Rinehart and what true prosperity really means beyond material wealth. Discover the three essential elements of genuine flourishing: redefining prosperity, daily spiritual practices, and meaningful community. These insights will challenge how you measure success in your own life.

00:00 The Importance of Friendship in Church
00:32 Introducing the Guest: Bishop Michael Reinhardt
04:41 Understanding Biblical Prosperity
06:46 The Value of Giving and Spiritual Growth
13:22 The Decline of Church Attendance
15:46 Rise of Unaffiliated Spiritual Gatherings
21:52 Navigating Community and Personality Differences
23:57 The Importance of Small Groups in Church
25:42 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Church Communities
26:51 Addressing Church Hurt and Building Genuine Connections
28:57 Conflict Resolution and Core Values in Communities
36:23 Denominations and the Future of the Church
40:33 Practical Steps to Deepen Your Spiritual Journey
43:20 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

⚡️ Get the guide + The Prosperity Fundamentals course for FREE in the pH community: https://www.skool.com/ph7/about

Transcript

Jim Johnson: 0:00

People report, uh, the number one reason when you, when people come to a church and you ask them, what's the number one reason you visited this church? But what's the number one reason you joined this church? The number one answer is to find friends. And pastors will say to me, well, that's not a very spiritual reason. I'm like, well, yes, it is. It's a very spiritual reason. We are hungry for relationship. We're hungry for relationship with God, with one another. We're a little bit afraid of it too, because we couldn't burn. If you haven't been burned, you haven't been living. To the prosperous human podcast, where our goal is to help people live prosperously, uh, and to truly understand what living prosperously looks like. This idea of. Flourishing or thriving, which allows us to grow in the right environment. And I have an amazing guest on today. This guy has, uh, been a friend of mine for quite some time. I wish I could have more time to hang out with him and just talk with him. Because every time I do, I feel like I gained something. I feel like I get poured into instead of being poured out of all the time. And, uh, it's awesome because we come from, uh, kind of two different ends of the spectrum. I tend to lean a little more conservative, he tends to lean a little more liberal, and we have great healthy conversation over that. And one of the things that really brought me to understanding how to have those conversations was a little, um, uh, study that we had done on building bridges. It's still something that sticks with me after all these years of how to have conversation. Um, and ask questions, uh, the right way to put yourself in somebody else's shoes to gain some understanding from them. And that really like endured me to this, uh, I would call him somebody that I look at as a mentor. Um, especially when it comes to spiritual growth and development. Now, as you guys know, Prosperous Human is built off of these seven elements. One of those elements is spiritual growth and development. So I am super excited to bring our guy here. Uh, Mike Reinhardt. Let me just see if I can get that clicked up real quick. There we go. All right. And, and here he is. And I've got to give him the official title. Like, he's got to have the official title. He's Bishop Michael Reinhardt, uh, ELCA Lutheran Church and, uh, amazing human being. Mike, uh, thanks for joining us today on Prosperous Human. Good to be with you. And you know, we could hang out a lot more if you would just move back to Montgomery. Yeah, it's kind of my fault. I moved about three hours ago. That's on me. But, uh, I live in Houston. It's like really humid there. And I just could not take the humidity. So, um. We miss you. Yeah, and likewise, I, and I try to make a point each time I'm in town to ping you, see if you have availability. I know you're super busy. And can you just give everybody, I mean, maybe a brief snapshot of, like, hey, what, what made you, like, get into what you're doing? And then why have you been there so long? And why Bishop? Like, why that? Sure, sure. Well, I've been a pastor for 36 years. And, uh, I, I was attracted to all things spiritual from a very young age, uh, for reasons that I don't honestly, uh, fully understand. But, uh, that attracted me. The Bible always fascinated me. It's just such an interesting book. And so I was drawn into that. Uh, from the get go, um, went to college and then off to seminary and became a pastor and then somewhere along the way, um, in our polity, you get elected bishop. Uh, and I, uh, have been doing that for about 18 years, which is basically just, uh, well, we all know bishops move diagonally. Uh, but besides that, we take care of churches. So we have about a hundred churches we take care of. And, uh, It's, it's soulful work. You do a fantastic job of it, too. Um, everybody I've ever met that's met you always has this, oh, what an amazing human being. Like, they always, like, that's the first thing that kind of comes out of their mouth if you say, hey, have you ever met Mike Reinhardt? And even over here, like, I'm in a different part of the state now where you're not in charge of. They know who you are over here and they still say the same thing. So, um, that's as speaks volumes of the type of person that you are. Um, so one of the core tenants underneath all of this that we are doing here at Prosperous Human is this idea of what is prosperity. And I think there's different versions of it, but when it comes to biblical prosperity. Um, how do you view that as somebody that's been around the church from a young age to now very experienced with that? Um, how do you view how our world sees prosperity versus what we see biblically? Well, the world, of course, views prosperity oftentimes materially. Uh, the Bible views it both materially and Spiritually as well, too. I mean, obviously you need food, you need clothing, you need all those things. Uh, but then Jesus goes on to say, what does it profit you if you gain the whole world but lose your soul? So, uh, he points constantly to those spiritual things, I guess, um, I would say, um, intangible things of life that make life worth living. Cause, you know, the most important stuff in life. is intangible. Love, joy, hope, kindness, generosity, all those kinds of things you can't see, touch, taste, feel, but without them, life is meaningless. Yeah, I would say that's kind of the point of the journey that I've been on. I've shared it a few times on our podcast. Those of you that are listeners, if you want to go hear that, that's great. But just a reader's digest, it is. All that intangible, I was trying to make tangible so I could understand, like, how do I live this life that's worth living? Um, not just, um, this survival aspect, or not just this go and gain a bunch of stuff aspect, but how do I live something that's actually, um, valuable? And, and what I've learned through that whole, um, experience was, that it wasn't about me. It was like what I give tends to be more valuable and more fulfilling than what I gain. And is, is there anything from a biblical perspective, uh, and the growth that you've done there that kind of explains that? Well, I mean, yes, there's, you know, you know, so many passages around that, uh, In Luke, uh, in the Sermon on the Plain, Jesus says, Give and it shall be given to you, pressed down, shaken together, overflowing. There's this sense of, of reciprocity in the world that the more we give, uh, the more that we receive. We create space for God to rush in, uh, when we're willing to give. And that's part of what life is about. Think about Apparent giving. Think about the times that you've given and everything kind of came back to you, uh, in different sorts of ways. So, what do you think is lead? Because I wouldn't say that's the prevailing word out there in Western culture. Um, it tends to be, uh, this idea of go and get yours, right? Go work hard and gain it, like get the big house, get the cars, the beautiful wife, all the stuff. And, and, and. I was able to do a lot of those things and I sat there going, well, is that the all there is to what do I got to do next by a plane like to prove to the world that I've, I've gotten what I need to go and get, why do you think so many are attracted to that messaging when really the opposite of that? Is the thing that brings about that fulfillment? Well, it's human nature, of course, right? You know, I mean, if there's 10 people in the room and somebody brings out five sandwiches, I mean, I think the human nature is I got to get mine. That's for sure. I'm going to get there early. I'm going to get it. And, you know, we probably learned that from an early age, especially if you have siblings and you. And you had to fight for what was yours. Um, yeah, it's human nature. I mean, we're, we're, I think we're probably inherently, uh, selfish. But then as we grow, as we mature, we start to learn, uh, that there is more to life than having. And, and the stuff that we get sometimes starts to weigh heavily on us. And you begin to realize, yeah, there, there There probably is something more to this. And then as we get really older, they talk about generativity. You grow to that stage where you really begin to realize, uh, that what's important to me is giving something. That's last, that has lasting value. What does that look like? Something that's lasting value? Like, is that something that I give somebody? Is it, um, and when I say that, it's like tangible? Like, here's this, I don't know, here's, here's a house, right? Or is it something different from that? Yeah, it could be. I mean, if somebody's hungry, giving them food is a very tangible thing and it is incredible value and you can save a life and that is an amazing thing. Uh, for us, we adopted a daughter, uh, our daughter, uh, Yuliana, as you know, and that was something that was near and dear to my heart. But honestly, every day, I mean, just shooting a smile at someone walking down the street, you just have no idea what kind of a difference that can make. There's so many intangible things that we can give, you know, complimenting people, listening to them. Just. Listening to people in this society where people are just talk, talk, talk. That alone can have a lot of value too. There's lots of ways to give and you've got to figure out who you are. Um, you know, if you've got millions of dollars to give away, you can do some amazing things with that. But if you don't, there are other things that you can give that can be in some cases just as valuable. I think that was one of the things that, um, Made spending time with you so valuable to me is that you actually heard me like you, you, I knew how you leaned. Um, and I also knew how I leaned and any experience I've ever had with, uh, anybody that I wasn't married to because my wife leans there too, um, has always been very defensive, very opinionated, very, um, Matter of fact, like it is this way or you're just wrong and you didn't handle things that way. Um, you were genuinely interested in what it was. I thought why I thought it, you, you asked me lots of questions and I learned a lot from that experience with you. Why do you, why do you think we don't tend to be that way? Is that another thing that's just human instinct? We want to, we want to be right all the time? Maybe so, or maybe we're just focused in on ourselves. Uh, we're inwardly focused on, you know, what I need, what I want and so forth. And, uh, what you begin to find out is the greatest joys in life are when you start to turn that, that focus outward. And that's, that's something I think can be cultivated. We have to learn how to cultivate that in our own lives. Uh, to find that place where we're giving and where we're finding joy in that giving, uh, when we're becoming more aware of the world around us, alive, awake, aware of everything around us, nature, all of creation, others around us, both our loved ones and even the strangers around us as well, too. And more aware of ourselves. Yeah, it was, um, it would have felt like is that you actually cared. Um, you, you, you had this perspective that even though you didn't necessarily agree with me, um, and I'm sure I'm not the only one you've probably had many, many conversations like this. You, you not only heard it, but you didn't dismiss it or act like it didn't have value. Um, you genuinely wanted to understand a little bit better where I might be coming from. And, uh, and I was thought like. Every after, each time that we had a conversation, uh, you, you saw my perspective a little better, which may have given you insight into the rest of us but lean that way. And, and I saw yours too. Like I went, uh, you know, I get like, this dude just absolutely loves other human beings. I wanna be more like that. Um, and so the reason I had you on and, and I didn't share this with you before, um, I had you on, is'cause you are one of those people. That have made all of this possible. Um, the, the fact that I'm willing to actually like. Put it out there and say something about it because I have now learned that I'm not the only one out there I'm not I'm not right all the time and I think the people I talked to aren't right all the time It's usually somewhere in between and it something I noticed and I can remember from our conversation was your concern over the declining attendance of people at church. We had talked about it a few different times. And is that still true? Is the church on a decline from attendance? Because that was all before COVID, so I'm sure that was a massive decline. But has it recovered? Did it recover back to what it was? Has it recovered more? What does that look like nowadays? So worship attendance in the world is not declining. Actually, it's growing. A lot, but mostly in the global South in the United States. Worship attendance has been falling since the 60s. I mean, pretty much. You and I don't know a time in history, uh, when the church as a whole was on the rise, and yeah, we can all see examples of this church or that church that has had explosive growth, but for every one of those churches, there's a hundred, uh, smaller congregations that are smaller than they used to be. Um, and I'm not really worried about big or small anyway. I'm, I'm, I'm more concerned about, think about how people grow spiritually. I mean, there's several things that have to happen. You've got to have daily, uh, time to reflect, quiet time where you, where you're not working, where you're not being hit with all the noise of the world. You're not on social media. You're not watching the news. My gosh. Nothing destroys your chi like watching the news, right? And, and then I think we also need spiritual community because, uh, left to ourselves, we're all kind of wrong, as you say. We're all kind of heretics on our own, until we're in community and we start listening to other people and seeing things from other angles of vision, then all of a sudden you get a much more multifaceted view of what the world is all about. So the kinds of spiritual practices, uh, that help us become broader. more, um, soulful, um, alive, awake, aware people, like we just talked about. Um, I see those kind of waning in society and, uh, that, that does concern me. So, um, something I've noticed over the last three or four years, a little bit before that, but really gaining some steam here these last three or four years. is unaffiliated gatherings, uh, of people talking about God, whether it's an event and people go to it because, hey, we're just going to like, they're, they're maybe hungry for that. And so they go to this event, maybe they're way into it. It's all ends of the spectrum on that. But even more importantly is, um, kind of this small group idea. but not affiliated with a church necessarily. Um, I've been doing one for the last five years with a group of people throughout the industries that I coach and we haven't stopped. We've, we've been doing it for five years. We don't all go to the same church. We don't all have the same denomination. Um, but we're all interested in understanding each other, understanding the Bible better and understanding relationship with God better and open enough. To say, Hey, I'm willing to see it from other people's perspectives. We have everything from the King James only, and there is no other book than that one to, um, some of the wildest, uh, um, uh, translations I've ever seen. Like it just, I, like that didn't even sound like my Bible, but we're still in this place of where we're open, uh, to participate with each other, regardless of the denomination. that you have. Do you see that rising or have you noticed any of that? I, I see more of it, like there's this ground swelling that people want it, they just may not want it at church. Or affiliated even with a, because you say non-denominational, but man, that's kind of denominational. Everyone I've been to has some pretty core ethics to it. Um, do you, do you see any of that out there? Sure. Absolutely. I mean, that pops up all over the place, both within churches and outside of churches. I think the key is finding a spiritual community where you can commit to weekly. It seems like once a week is, it's kind of a thing, you know, if, if, if you go work at the gym. even once a week doesn't hardly even seem like enough, right? You need to be doing more than that or you're going to hurt yourself. Um, and if you want to, if you want to take karate, if you, I mean, there's certain things that if you're, if you really want to get serious about stuff, you've got to be more invested in it. And the community is oftentimes what helps you get there. Uh, now there's some people that are more attracted to community than others, but we all needed it at some level to keep us from kind of spinning off into the fringe. things in general. So yeah, people will find community wherever they can get it. I remember I had a friend at my last church who, uh, we did a series of small groups and, and just the small group met in his home. As a matter of fact, he said, you know, this is my church. He said, I mean, I go to church, I get a lot out of that. No question. But it's where we're in this small group where we can really wrestle things to the ground and people can talk about, I mean, it's very hard if you're in a church and there's 100, people in the room, you're not going to say, I'm struggling with my marriage. Um, or I'm having trouble with my kids. I mean, there's no space to do that in church. You have to break it down into some small group entity where people can really talk about the stuff that's going on in their lives. I'm wrestling with this thing and I need somebody to vent to and that can listen to me. And then sometimes that group can come and help you. Other times they don't help you. They just are a good sounding board, a listening board to help you kind of process things. It strikes me as how. The first century church was, um, yeah, they were house churches and they were, um, a small community and probably with a few blocks of each other, um, getting together. And I, so I had this opportunity. Um, I was. Really thinking about doing another, uh, group, but I wanted to do it around some things that I loved. Um, I love to barbecue. I love to play golf and I love to spend some time in the Bible. And so I was going to do like a group around that, put it out in my neighborhood, which has a pretty active Facebook group. And I was telling a friend about it. He goes, Hey, hold on before you do that. I think my brother's putting something together like that. Let me call him real quick. Gets back to you. He goes, yeah, we're meeting this Saturday. And so we meet at the golf course, which I thought that great, this is wonderful. We have lunch together. We have an hour long Bible study and then we, we go out and play golf for four hours and actually talk about what it was that, uh, the, the core message was and like it just fit me. They didn't ask me what my denomination was and none of that kind of, there was no politics talked about and that's like rule number one. And if I get into a conversation with somebody, the first thing they're bringing up is politics. I'm probably going to exit out that conversation really fast. Um, Do you think that's the way it should go? Do you think that's for spiritual growth for people? Because here's some things that happened out of that that were really interesting. One of the guys suggested, um, because he does it with a small group of three or four friends, that they pray for each other every single day at 316. Which, John 3. 16, I thought, wow, that's really brilliant. So I added it on my phone and put the event on their task every day at 3. 16. Can I actually pray at 3. 16? Now I'm in a call or doing the podcast like this, right? But as soon as this is over, that reminder is going to be there for me. And I'm going to go pray for those guys. Um, the idea of having a group text between all of us. It's allowing us to communicate throughout the week and dig deeper into those, those subjects. And there was just this idea of value there that I didn't feel like I was getting from the church. Um, because you're right, like in church, I can't raise my hand. Hey pastor, uh, I got a question about that, right? Like you would probably get a little frustrated with us. And so are the other 199 people out there hanging out with us. How do people go about organizing or finding, they just do some search or like I got lucky. Yeah, you got lucky, but you're also an extrovert, Jim. And you're, um, you're a make it happen. Kind of person and some people are, but there are some people that aren't. There's some people that are much more, um, relaxed about allowing life to come to them rather than chasing after it. That's it. This is not a critique. Jim. This is I know your personality, but, you know, they're, they're. There are others who are wired differently and so people find community in their own way and it's harder for some people than it is for others, quite frankly, to find that kind of community. I mean, the fact that you found that is amazing. The studies show us that, uh, Um, middle aged men, uh, report that they don't have a lot of friends. It's, it's actually pretty rare. In fact, someone once said to me, Jesus biggest miracle, uh, was that he had a group of 12 friends at the age of 30. You know, there's, there's a lot of truth to that because one of the seven things in this is community. Um, so you and I are talking spiritual growth and development, but these things all tie together and community was the one that I felt weakest in. I moved in a new place, pandemic hits and don't get to connect. And so because I know these things exist and I wasn't having, um, that participation that I know I need to feel like I belong. I wasn't intentional about looking for it. Because you knew you needed it, but there's some people who don't know that they need it. I mean, yeah, iron as, as like iron sharpens iron, one person sharpens another. I mean, being with people will help you grow spiritually, a community will do that, but some people don't know they need it. Uh, that's why a lot of churches do small group ministry programs are very intentional about it. Uh, you know, we launched. Like 22 small groups, one fall. And there were people who just weren't sure they were going to try it, but they were willing to try it for six weeks. And after that six weeks was over a bunch of those groups stopped meeting, but we still had 16 left. And because people were like, gosh, this is really fun. We've been meeting each other's homes. People love to be in each other's homes. Because they see the photos on the wall, and they can talk about what's going on, and then there's food involved as well too, and it's more relaxed, and like you say, you can talk about the stuff going on in your life, and all of a sudden, that's where a superficial community, where you're going to a building and worshipping with a bunch of people for an hour, and then going home, uh, is, is deepened. exponentially by being part of a small group where you can really go much deeper, uh, and get to know people better, uh, care for, for people. And what's amazing to me is I've seen, uh, that small group for some people be their pallbearers when they pass away. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah, I think people are starved for it. I think people are starved, not only for that connection and belonging, but depth. You know, to have a deeper conversation because, like you said, there's a lot of noise out there. It's a very information technology driven world. But we like three second little videos about cats and stuff like that. And, uh, and we, and we. We say we want depth, but our actions don't show it, um, on the large part, I would think, if you just observe people. Why? I don't know. But I'll tell you this, uh, people report, uh, the number one reason when you, when people come to a church and you ask them, what's the number one reason you visited this church or what's the number one reason you joined this church? The number one answer is to find friends. And pastors will say to me, well, that's not a very spiritual reason. I'm like, well, yes, it is. It's a very spiritual reason. We are hungry for a relationship. We're hungry for a relationship with God, with one another. We're a little bit afraid of it too, because we've been burned. If you haven't been burned, you haven't been living. Uh, you know, the person who, who breaks trust with you, the person who, Turns on you for whatever reason. And so we're, we're, we're at the same time hungry for relationships, but also very, very suspicious, very wary, uh, that I'm going to get in relationship with this person and they're going to find out who I am, uh, or like you say, who I voted for or. What I think about this or that or and so forth and then all of a sudden they're going to turn on me or not like me and then then I feel more dejected and rejected. I'm glad you brought that up. Um, because it wasn't one of the things I had here, but it is something I do want to ask about. Um, this concept of church hurt. You've heard that before, I would assume. Oh, yeah. Um, and I think that's a bit of fear, uh, for people. Because at some point or another, something didn't go right in a church, what, for whatever reason. Um, I do believe, like, one of the ways to get connected to a community and to find friends, especially when you move in and you're new, is, Hey, I wanted to go to church and meet some people. And I can remember coming to the church where I met you. And something really stuck out there. Uh, like more than other places because I've been to places where people were very welcoming. I haven't been to many places where they were genuinely welcoming. It was like, Hey, here's our, here's our bag and here's your coffee cup and here, like all that stuff. We were super happy to have you and everything's wonderful. I mean, the people at this church were like hugging you and greeting you and they were genuinely excited to have you there and be a part of their community. It was, it was the thing that got me there. Now, um, afterwards and, and spending some time there. Um, I've developed some great friendships that are for a lifetime, but so many times you go into one of those churches and something happens, some dynamic that's a human dynamic. There's, uh, something that the pastor does that's wrong or proceed to be wrong. Something that one of the, uh, church leaders, elders, or whatever, or just a choice in. Um, who's accepted and who's not. I mean, the ELCA dealt with that in, I think, 2009, right? Like, you guys made a bunch of big moves and stuff. And that changed the whole dynamic and culture of that. And I hear all the time from people, well, I don't go to church because And the because tends to be those things. I don't ever hear people say, I don't go to church because I don't believe in God. What can we do about that? Is there anything that can be done about that? Well, we're all going to need thicker skins and softer hearts, for one, because anytime you get in community, uh, you're gonna, you're gonna bump. And think about your family, think about any community you've ever been in. Have you ever been to a Neighborhood Association meeting? I don't really know if I'm to play. I don't recommend it. I like my neighbors, I just don't like my neighborhood. It's like Gandhi says, I like your Jesus, but I'm not sure about his followers. Because you get together in a church, and now all of a sudden you've got a budget, and you've got a building, and you've got people that have preferences about all kinds of things, and then people disagree about stuff, and then oftentimes it's the way they treat one another. Because everybody's at a different place in their own maturity, in their own growing, in their own set of priorities, people have come to the church for different reasons. It's going to be that way, whether it's a church, whether it's a neighborhood association, whether it's a club, whether it's a I mean, you name it, a tennis league, uh, you're, you're going to, you're going to bump into, people are going to bump into people and there's going to be battles. And, um, there are a couple of things that have to happen is you have to set a set of core values for how we are going to relate to one another, how we're going to treat one another. And then it's up to leadership to be the immunity system of the organization. Uh, the leaders are the ones who come in and say, Whoa, whoa, wait a second. Hey, listen, remember our values are over here. This is the way that we handled these kinds of things. This is the way we talk to one of this, how we treat one another. Why don't we come together and let's, let's work this out together. And, and when you do that, you can alleviate a lot of things, but you're not going to solve every problem because somebody is going to come and they're going to get mad about something. And it's, sometimes it just surprises me what people get mad about and they get their feelings hurt. I remember one time there was a guy who didn't come to church for years because he said he saw me at the grocery store and I didn't greet him. I had absolutely no recollection of ever seeing him in the grocery store, but he was mad about that for years. And I was like, but I didn't even see you. I don't, I have no recollection of this event whatsoever. So I mean, that's, you know, people are people and it's just the way it is. Uh, unfortunately, even Jesus disciples, you know, I had a similar thing happen. With this group that I do on Wednesday mornings that we've been meeting for five years. One of the guys just kind of vanished. I reached out to him and he was, he wasn't, um, unfriendly or anything. He's just like, I'm busy with this and this and I got other things I, I gotta get done. I didn't think much about it, kind of let it go. Well, two years later, he shows back up. And I'm like, man, it's so good to have you back. That's awesome. And, uh, then he proceeds to let me know that the reason he left is because I allowed for a political discussion inside of our, inside of our group, because we were just breaking down some things and having those really vulnerable, um, conversations and, and he didn't, he didn't like it. Which I'm like, why didn't you just tell me? Like, let's have that conversation. Like, if it's something you didn't like, let me know. And let me share with you why we did what we did. And maybe it'll change the way I do things in the future. And maybe I'll make it better for people. And I think so many of us are scared of that conflict. That we just walk away. Um, I've seen more than others. Yeah, I've seen that happen a lot in churches. Um, sometimes I think the more broken a church is, the better the opportunity for healing like this idea. But we just, we don't like this conflict aspect of things. And so we ended up throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Like, yeah, I still believe in God, I'll just do my thing on my own and do it that way because then I don't have anybody messing up my world. What would you, what would you say to those people? I'll tell you, we have a congregation down in La Porte, uh, where about a third of the congregation are in recovery, uh, that is recovering alcoholics, literally, I'm not joking. This is, this is really true. And they have AA meetings at the church and so on and so forth. And I'll tell you, it's an amazing community because these are people who have been broken To the point of breaking. And so they, it's real. I mean, they have a very real perspective on what life is about. And they also know that if you don't turn to a high power, you're in trouble. And if you, it's forgiveness. And repentance and, um, taking a searing moral inventory of yourself. Isn't part of the journey. You're never going to make it. And that affects the way people deal with conflict. It affects the way that they engage with one another. It means that there's a much more openness to having, um, what I call crucial conversations, uh, that kind of explain that a little bit. But actually there's a book called Crucial Conversations that's really worth reading. Uh, uh, where they say that this is one of the biggest problems that we have is that we avoid, because we become conflict avoidant, we avoid having those crucial conversations. Like that guy that you just told me about, if, if that person had come to you or the guy I told you about, that that person had come to me and say, man, it really hurt my feelings that, you know, I saw you in the grocery store and you pretended like I didn't exist. And uh, and then I could have said, well. You may not know this, but I don't actually even see out of my right eye. So, I mean, that's truth. And I'm blind as a bat in my left eye too. So, um, if I don't see you, it's probably because I don't, didn't see you quite frankly, or, uh, and, or this guy could come to you and said, Hey, you know, I don't, I didn't like that whole political conversation that can we, can we. agree to not have those kinds of conversations, then you can say, all right, well, what kind of conversations can we have? And you work things out. That kind of crucial conversation is absolutely critical. And what happens is we avoid that conversation. And then the conflict festers and festers and festers and festers until somebody blows up. And, and they blew up over something that has nothing to do with that original conflict. You know, it's like the argument with your spouse over, you know, the toothpaste. It's not really about the toothpaste. Well, I bring this up and you know, right? Like we've had this conversation before people will ask me, um, are you a Christian? I'm like, um, by your definition, yes. But by my definition, I would say more believer. That's, that's really where I try to live as much as possible in, in my world of it, the word denomination, like, uh, God's that one, that's the one I'm a denomination of. And I can remember, you know, uh, my wife is Lutheran and she really is comfortable in a Lutheran church with, she grew up that way. It's just this comfort thing. And, um, I kept getting asked like, Hey, are you going to join the church? I said, yeah, sure. Do I have to become Lutheran? They're like, no, like, Oh, this is a cool church. I kind of like this. Like I didn't say I had to become something, do something, pass some kind of hurdle or test and jump over a bunch of bricks or whatever else it was to be a member. It's just like, we take you as you are. And, uh, and I, I still don't say I'm Lutheran. I say I'm a believer that attends a Lutheran church, which is fine, I think. Um, because I'm so, um, frustrated with. What denomination has done to what I think the church was intended to be. Um, do you agree with that statement or do you see value in those denominations? Like, what does that look like for you in the seat that you sit in? Cause I, that's fascinating to me. Yeah, so the denominations are a byproduct of the Reformation, and I don't think it's what Luther had in mind, I think it's just kind of the way things played out, um, and so, you have, uh, you know, Luther was excommunicated, and so there, some churches became Lutheran, and some became Catholic, and then you had the Church of England, and a lot of Lutheran churches are either Lutheran German or Scandinavian, the Church of England is from England, Presbyterian is from Scotland, and you ended up with these, um, cohorts, if you will, uh, that gathered around, um, national issues, political issues, theological issues, and so forth. It just fascinates me that we're still organized that way 500 years later. In North America, we're still organized around European theological and political polarities from 500 years ago. That world is passing away. Uh, it, it, we don't have to kill it. It's, it's dying on its own. Um, and something else is going to emerge. The thing is we don't realize what it is. Phyllis Tickle talks about the church has a rummage sale every 500 years. When the Roman Empire fell. Um, you know, the church reorganized at about 500, and then you had the great schism between the Eastern Church and Western Church in a thousand, and then you had the Reformation in 1500, and now we're here at 2000 plus, and we're, we're seeing a reorganization of the church, and I don't know what it's going to look like. Um, we probably won't live to see it, Jim. You know what that reminds me of? It reminds me of Jesus. He existed and then said, Hey, this is the way that we should have been doing things the entire time. And then it became identified with him. Um, and I actually like the term used was Christus. They believe in this Christus person, which then over time became Christians. But Jesus never stopped being a Jew, nor did Paul or Luke or any of that. That wasn't their goal. That wasn't what they were shooting for. They were shooting for a reformation of, um, Judaism to be at what it really was. And that's kind of what the reformation struck me as, is like, Hey, this is what we're all about. And we, let's get back to the basics of what this is all about. Do you think that's a fair? Do you think that's a fair? Every good and interesting person I've known, uh, uh, can see beyond their denominational limitations. Right. I mean, Thomas Merton said, sometimes I feel I have more in common. He was a, he was a Trappist monk, Roman Catholic, who said, I feel like I have more in common with these Buddhist monks that are praying over here than I do with this parish priest who's just going through the motions. And I thought, wow, that's, that's profound that he was able to see the spirituality. in someone from a different tradition. Jesus sees that, too. He points out faith in Roman centurions, in Samaritan women, in people outside his, um, cultural and religious matrix. He sees that spiritual horizon happening there. So, if you're Methodist and you can't identify spirituality in a Baptist, if you're Lutheran and you can't see spirituality in a Roman Catholic person of deep faith, um, and even those who don't identify with the denomination who are just Um, looking to find some grounding in life, something that really matters, a spiritual center. Um, that's, that's the world that we need to really pay attention to. So when we are coming up to the end of this, I wish we had more time. It's always like, I would just want to hang out and talk with you. Do it again, my friend. Um, but I do have a question. So I'm listening to this. I'm one of those guys out there listening to this podcast today. And I'm being poked at, I'm being provoked, like, you know, probably should, um, increase my relationship with my creator. What are some of the first steps, like, I think it would be good to give some advice, first steps, like, hey, what would be wise to do? Yeah, I'll lay out a couple things, uh, but in the time we have left, we don't have time to go deep. Let's come back and talk about this again, because you, you've asked. You've asked the question. I think the question, but the first thing I would say is start by setting 30 minutes a day aside for reflection. Even if you don't believe in God, take some time and just have some silent time, reflect time, get a pencil and a paper out, write in a journal, do something where you're Getting off the grid, away from people, um, uh, away from your phone, social media, away from the radio, we're constantly bombarded by noise. And so we don't have a chance to just see life for what it is. Get out, go for a walk outdoors, whatever it is, 30 minutes a day is an absolute must for a starter. And we can talk about a lot of different ways to spend that 30 minutes that can be fruitful because in different stages of life. What you do with that time really matters, um, and it's going to change. There'll be a point at which something you're doing will no longer work, and you've got to be ready to pivot to something else. And then, like we were talking about, the next stage is to get, uh, 30, uh, uh, once a week, some kind of spiritual community so that you're not just a lone ranger. You're out there with others who are also searching, finding that community. We can talk about how to do that. Getting a coach, anything worth doing requires a coach, you know, Tiger, um, um, Tiger Woods needed a coach. Uh, every team, and no matter how good you are, you need a coach because you can't watch yourself swing. You got to have other people in. So go find somebody that emulates something that you want to learn about, even if for just a year and say, Hey, will you coach me once a month? Let's have a conversation, uh, that because as iron sharpens iron and one person sharpens, uh, there's three things you can do right there. Once a day, 30 minutes, silent times, uh, once a week, some kind of spiritual community and find a coach. It's really good. Yeah. Like I said, it was a slow burn for me. I started off with like just a verse that I would look at each day and that takes just five minutes. And then it was like, Hey, that was pretty cool. How about a devotional? And it was about 15 minutes. Now I'm up to where I spend almost an hour every day writing, reflecting, and thinking as great advice. Uh, Mike, thank you so much for being on our show today. Um, I do want to have you back on. I, there's, there's some stuff that we want to dig into here. I think that would be valuable for others. Um, any final words to the audience out there? Listen, listen to your life, listen to the, listen to the sound of the earth, listen to your friends, um, be open, be awake, be alert, be alive. That's some pretty good advice. We don't do enough of it. Bishop Reinhart, Mike, thank you for being on the show today and we'll see you on a future show. Good talking with you, Jim. Yeah, you too.